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Jun 5 16 6:22 AM

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In V2 I'm thinking about replacing war wagons with field fortifications that can be deployed in the second (maybe third) row, rahter than just the first one.  This is because I've realised that the wagons didn't move in the vast majority of their battles.  The Hussites would therefore be a mixture of missile-amed troops and bombards, with cavarly and reserves behind.  How does that sound?
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#1 [url]

Jun 5 16 10:30 AM

Seems about right, however as they are essentially wagons possibly letting them deploy further in than the normal deployment zone is a good option. Also the odd wagon had light artillery mounted on it so this needs to be included, other possible options are making it easy for Hussite infantry and cavalry to pass over/through the wagons as they had movable barriers or chains to allow the troops inside to Sally out. Finally you could consider allowing limitless ammunition for the crossbows and hand gunners fighting from the wagons as they would have had ammunition aboard the wagons. Making the wagons an immobile special unit for the fortifications and then the crew are a second separate unit in the same square. This would allow the crews to hold the wagons or Sally out leaving the wagons ungarrisoned.

Hussites are one of my favourites and I agree that they rarely moved in battle (although there are a couple of examples). They are an army that need very specific rules to bring out their character.

Last Edited By: sidley Jun 5 16 10:35 AM. Edited 2 times.

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#2 [url]

Jun 5 16 12:46 PM

Yes Sidley I can have the light artillery (bombards or organ guns) firing from the relative safety of the wagons and will build in points that they can rally from. The ammo point is a very good one; it occurs to me that ammo resupply in fortifications could be made easier.

With the war wagons gone, I could make the Hussites formed infantry, perhaps billmen or spearmen, with "extra handguns" representing their numerous hand gunners and crossbowmen.

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#3 [url]

Jun 6 16 5:06 AM

The Hussites weren't the only ones with war wagons' the Chinese had them too.

The question is whether Hussite or Chinese war wagons ever moved during a battle, rather than before or after the fighting. For Chinese, I haven't been able to answer that. Certainly, wagons were used by some Chinese armies in a laager as a field fortification but I can't say if they were ever moved around the battlefield. I can't see them moving close to the enemy. The draught animals would be very vulnerable. So far as I can tell, Chinese war wagons weren't combined with artillery, unlike Hussite wagons, so if they were immobile rhey would be of little use unless you wanted to fight wholly defensively.

I like odd units occasionally, so it will be a pity to lose them in their current quirky form. Maybe allow them to be fielded as mobile or immobile, but if mobile not allowed voluntarily to move into a box adjacent an enemy unit? Simon, is there a reason you want to get rid of them?


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#4 [url]

Jun 6 16 6:32 AM

Hi Roger,

I'm keen to get rid of them because I believe there was only one (or perhaps two) occasions when they moved during a battle. They are an odd type, as you say, and not play-tested. If I drop them, I can save at least half a page of the rulebook and put it to a better use in v2! I am bound to have at least a couple more pages of text next time around and I don't want to make the book much thicker.. I can then cover the Hussites with a special rule for fortifications in their army list.

Best, Simon

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#5 [url]

Jun 6 16 11:19 PM

I think we need to be very prescriptive in what constitutes a war wagon and what constitutes a wagon laager. The Chinese certainly seems to fall into the later. True war wagons seem to be late medieval eastern European such as Hussites, Hungarians, Poles (both probably using Hussite mercenaries) and Russian Gulay Gorod.

I can think of plenty laagers which had an effect for good or bad in battle. The battle of Watling Street and Adrianople being the most obvious. 

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#6 [url]

Jun 7 16 2:04 AM

I think the principle differences were that the war wagons were designed (or at least customised) for war with additional defences (high sides, loopholes, thicker walls and defences between the wagons).

I'm thinking that war wagons might provide better protection that the average wagon laager, at a greater cost. I need to review the protection offered by fortified camps in general, because it is too effective in v1.1, but there might be a way of distinguishing war wagons from laager.

There is a danger that Hussites hunkered down in their immobile laager might make for a dull game, but that is how the battles went. I suppose that if one was being peppered with Hussite cannon balls then attack might become an attractive option!

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#7 [url]

Jun 7 16 2:13 AM

Although not directly connected, your point about war wagons making for a boring game does raise another point.

For version 2, are you considering a number of scenarios as an option for players. Something to bring players out of their comfort zone forcing turtling armies to move or attacking armies to hold. This could also mix up the board edges played along, across or diagonally. Such scenarios could be in an optional rule section at the back. I'm aware that you are reluctant to introduce too much complexity or unnecessary rules but having optional rules would allow players to decide how much complexity they would wish to have.

When you knock out version 2, would it be possible to have a you tube tutorial on the rules? 

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#8 [url]

Jun 7 16 2:23 AM

Hi Sidley,

There are scenarios in V1, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone playing them! Perhaps I need to "sex them up" a bit.

The youtube tutorials are something I've been meaning to do for months- I even got the video camera down, ready, but it's still sitting in the corner, unloved. I'll get to it soon.

Best, Simon

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#9 [url]

Jul 20 16 7:24 PM

I will be posting a Hussite battle that I ran at Historicon shortly, with the (relatively few) special rules that I used for the WW. Although opne might think such battles to be dull, in all the rules I have played them with, the battles are always close and tense!

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#11 [url]

Jul 22 16 8:55 AM

We allowed it, and although the set up was in a lager, they did move a bit at the end of the game when there were some breakthroughs of the Hussite defensive line. I personally think the wagons should retain the ability to move - but it shouldn't be easy to do so, especially once they are "set" in a defensive position!

I understand the desire not to consume a lot of space within the rules covering them, but perhaps some of that could be moved to the Army List?

War Wagons *are* very cool! :-)

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