Remove this ad

Lead

Jun 23 16 12:43 AM

Tags : :

I’m currently thinking about Rallying.  I like units being able to rally, but at present I think it is too easy, because it is generally somewhat easier to rally a unit than it is to inflict a disorder.  To hit a unit one needs three things to happen- activation; hit in shooting or melee and for the target to fail a save. When rallying, however, there are only two stages - activation and save (albeit with minuses).  This relative ease of rallying can cause the game to slow down.What I’m thinking is that I need to restrict the ease of rallying by removing the option of rallying when within an enemy Zone of Control (With certain exceptions). This would convey additional benefits, as units will need to fall back if they wish to rally, so commands will recoil and liens break up under pressure. Players will also need to maintain gaps between their lines in order that units can retire.There might be exceptions to this rule.   Heroic generals or heroes might be able to conduct a rally when within an enemy Zone of Control. This seems very apt for heroes.Thoughts please!Thanks Simon
Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Remove this ad

#1 [url]

Jun 23 16 5:54 AM

I like this idea. If you do use the exception of rallying with a hero, does he get removed following the rally? If not, I think generals would probably never use heroes to re draw a melee card,,which would lose the hero, when they get a permanent rally +1 if they hang on to him. So I think he should remain a one shot weapon, but he can choose his shot!

Mollinary

Quote    Reply   

#2 [url]

Jun 23 16 6:20 AM

Hi Mollinary,

I was thinking about the hero being removed (or better, removed on an odd activation card as I've proposed for all heroes). He wouldn't give a +1 bonus, ,just the opportunity to retest. I'd take out the penalties for units being able to charge the testers, which would help to keep things simple.

Best, Simon

Quote    Reply   

#3 [url]

Jun 23 16 6:53 AM

i,m not sure that you need to speed things up. Our guys like the rally rules as they are. Really you can either rally or fight, on rare occasions, both. It gives standard battleline troops a chance to save themselves. More often than not our guys pull back a square before they attempt a rally anyway .

Quote    Reply   

#4 [url]

Jun 23 16 7:33 AM

Hi Jim,

I think it's just a bit too easy to rally- especially with veterans. I've seen lines clash, disorder, rally and repeat half a dozen times- which can be entertainign but which can make games, on occasion, too long. I don't intend to do away with rallies, just to make them rarer events. I guesstimate that restricting the rallies might shorten games by 25% or more; so one could either fit in more games or spend more time drinking! :-)

Best, Simon

Quote    Reply   

#7 [url]

Jun 24 16 12:52 AM

We usually play fairly large 180 point games, 3 a side on a Tuesday at our club. Easily played to a logical conclusion in around 2 hours. We've played games with more than 100 units a side and completed in 3-4 hours even with plenty of yap. I'd rather play a logical, enjoyable, "realistic" game rather than one simply relying on speed. Our guys like the extra decision you have to make .

Quote    Reply   

#8 [url]

Jun 24 16 1:36 AM

Hmmm... I'm not proposing to ditch the rally; but one will need to pull back the unit in order to do it. This will introduce some other interesting tactics to a game- notably the need to maintain a gap between lines so that units can pull back in order to rally. It should shorten the game somewhat, but in my experience that means that people will increase the size of their armies to fill the available gaming time (well I would!). I'll make sure we get plenty of time to play-test it.

Quote    Reply   

#10 [url]

Jul 5 16 11:17 PM

Hi Gareth,

I have been slowly rowing back on rallies ever since I introduced the concept. It has proved quite challenging to get the balance right.

Best, Simon

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad

#11 [url]

Jul 9 16 3:04 AM

I have been thinking about this for a while now, but can't persuade myself it is a desirable change to the rules.

Firstly, I don't think it reflects what (generally) happened in the period covered by the TtS! Rules. Did troops really retreat a significant distance, halt and reform? My impression is that, once troops started to go back, they generally kept on going. I know that, in a sustained fight, one side or both might step back a few yards before the fight was resumed, but I think this is an action that occurs 'within' a box, between one charge and the next. So I am happy that rallying (maybe really reforming and resting) is something that could occur in a ZOC between charges. The fact that such reforming is more difficult the more enemy units are around is already reflected in the rules.

i also doubt it will work well as a game mechanism. If you are going to rally, you have to activate to retreat (a difficult activation) then activate again to try to rally. If you fail to rally in a single turn, it is then easy for the enemy to move up and prevent you trying to rally unless you do the same retreat/try to rally process again. It will mean that rallying successfully will become very rare, and once a unit is disordered, it is likely to be only a matter of time before it is destroyed. The lower 'to hit' value of a disordered unit becomes fatal, and combats more often decided by the unit lucky enough to get the first unsaved hit, as better troops can't use their quality to try to recover. I also wonder whether we'll see units standing in front of a disordered enemy, hoping they will retreat to try to rally, rather than charging to finish them off. 

for me, games at 120 - 150 points don't currently take too long. Perhaps rallying is a problem in really big games, but for most of us I expect such games will be rare. At the moment, there is are real decisions to be made when you have a disordered unit. It would be a pity if you really had no choices worth taking. 

RogerC



 

Quote    Reply   

#12 [url]

Jul 9 16 4:58 AM

Hi Roger,

The trouble is that to hit a unit one needs to Activate, Hit and the target fail to save. To rally a unit just needs to Activate, Save; consequently it is just about twice as easy to rally as is it to hit. Even the current save penalties for enemy within charge reach doesn't go very far to offset this. It needs to be restricted - not necessarily by much, but at least somewhat.

This week I have been thinking about permitting rallies to take place within a ZOC, as at present, but only when an heroic general or hero is present. It seems really appropriate for the latter. What do you think of that?

Best, Simon

Quote    Reply   

#13 [url]

Jul 9 16 11:37 AM

Thank you Simon.

Most generals and all heroes are 'tied' to a specific unit. So if it was the presence of heroes/heroic generals that allowed rallying in a ZOC, then some units could rally more easily than others. If heroes are 'used up' by such a rally attempt, then they would be expensive. If they weren't, you'd want as many heroes as possible for their rallying effect and wouldn't want them used to replay to-hit cards. I also thought you were trying to reduce the number of heroes, so there were roughly the same in all armies, from our earlier discussion about warriors. 

On the othe hand, I can see your point about rallying being easier to achieve than an unsaved hit. Maybe rallying is a bit too easy, although a command which uses activations to rally is surrendering the initiative to the enemy. 

One thought I had is to move the negative save modifier from the save itself to the activation. So if one enemy unit could charge the disordered unit it is a difficult activation, if 2 it is a doubly difficult activation, etc. That would mean that trying to save increases the chance of a failed activation. You'd have to choose whether to take that risk, or do other things.  Having a general with the unit makes getting the save activation more likely (the General can replay a failed activation) which also seems right.  It would get very hard to make multiple saves in one turn with a unit that could be charged by a couple of enemy units. Also, saving  in a ZOC is automatically harder than when clear if the enemy. 

I'm sure there is a balance here, to tone down saves without units doing unrealistic retreats. I'll keep on thinking.

RogerC

Quote    Reply   

#14 [url]

Jul 9 16 12:26 PM

Hi Roger,

The heroes would be used up in the rally attempt, at least 50% of the time (on an odd card). I am planning to bring the number of heroes somewhat into line my including one in the cost of warriors.

Your suggestion regarding activations is very interesting; I will think about the implications tomorrow. Another idea I had been kicking around with is to make any rally activation end the turn for that command, such that there could only ever be one rally per command per turn. This would really focus a player's mind.

Best, Simon

Quote    Reply   

#15 [url]

Jul 11 16 5:02 AM

Hi Roger,

I'm very taken with the idea you mention above.

Essentially rallying within a ZoC (or better, within charge reach of an enemy unit) would become a difficult activation. Additional potential enemy chargers would increase the difficulty level by one. I would take away the current modifiers to saves including the one for generals. Instead, the presence of a heroic general (or a hero) would permit the re-roll of the activation test; if a hero was used then he would be lost on an odd activation card.

It would make rallies within charge reach of the enemy riskier as the chance of the turn ending would increase. There is no net increase in complexity. What do people think?

Best, Simon

Quote    Reply   

#17 [url]

Jul 11 16 9:10 AM

Thank you Simon; I'm glad my idea took your fancy.

To keep things simple, you could say that any general could replay the activation card (as now), but allow heroes to replay a failed 'to-save' card. The hero would be lost on an odd card, as you plan. I'm not sure about allowing that for heroic generals. There isn't any risk to a general in a save activation, so it is a bit different from the heroic general's ability to replay a failed 'to-hit' card ( which occurs during a fight when he may be hit).

Making save activations more risky, rather than requiring a retreat, keeps the pressure on the player to make good choices; do you go for the save activation or try activating another unit to relieve the pressure first.

RogerC

Quote    Reply   

#18 [url]

Jul 11 16 3:13 PM

Hi Roger,

I'll think more on the exact mechanics tomorrow.  I quite like the idea of heroes rallying stuff; it seems suitably heroic.  If the hero then goes it's not that he's dead so much as he's done his bit for that battle.  I've always resisted letting heroes re-roll a failed save because it feels a little overpowered to me; it can be so hard to inflict a hit (especially on units liek legionaries or knights) I don't want to take that away!

I totally agree about rallies becoming difficult making the player keep good choices.

Best, Simon

Quote    Reply   

#19 [url]

Aug 2 16 1:00 PM

Hi gents,
I have only played a few games, but to me the issue with Rallying is not once the battle lines clash, it is with longer range missile fire.
There seems to be no point in shooting at ranges beyond 1 square because it is so difficult to score a hit and so easy for the target to rally.
Pete

Quote    Reply   

#20 [url]

Aug 3 16 1:19 AM

Hi Pete, the rules aren't especially generous with shooting- I suppose that is how I see ancient battles. By temperament I'm more a Roman than a Persian! ;-)

In a strange way this does address the concern that I've had that shooting at range should be less effective than close shooting, since the hits at long range are more easily rallied than those at close. There was a really good article in Slingshot that explained that most of the shooting casualties came at relatively close range- so longer fire becomes merely harassing.

There will be several things that will help shooters in v2 (late next year). Rallies will be harder and there will be defensive fire when charged. Also knights will find it harder to rally,,,

I would say that it is often worth shooting at the longer range, especially if one has mounted who can capitalise on a disordered enemy. this is why Sassanids are so good.

Quote    Reply   
Remove this ad
Add Reply

Quick Reply

bbcode help