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Apr 30 17 2:12 AM

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Hi all,
my second game at TtS.
Just two questions:
1) two crusaders knights in the same box were facing an Ayubbid cavalry.
Another enemy cavalry charged them diagonally in their back: They decided to evade and succeeded both cards (5+). So they evaded diagonally to the box close to the enemy cavalry they were originally facing.
Is it correct? Does not ZOC rules apply in this case?
-In doing so, they went around the enemy lines and while one of them stopped to face and charge the enemy foe, the other one went to sack the camp (my camp!) image and won the game...

2) Rally penalty for having enemy in a position from which it could charge...: does this include only enemy units in an adiacent box or units in one box  (infantry) or two (mounted) far, too?

Thank you!
Luca
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#1 [url]

Apr 30 17 3:33 AM

Hi Luca. I expect Simon will be along soon to give the official interpretation, but here is my understanding.

Knights can't evade. Because of the way units are classified, knights are not cavalry (the definitions on pages 12 to 25 are mutually exclusive) and so are not in the list on page 43 of units that can evade.

If the crusaders had been cavalry, rather than knights, then it gets a bit complicated. As I understand it, the charge is a flank one, and so can target either of the crusader units. If it targets the rear one, that unit isn't completely pinned by the ZOC as it is behind a formed friendly unit, relative to the Ayubbid cavalry. It can move sideways as well as directly backwards. However, the only possible evades are backwards or diagonally, since the charge is itself diagonal. I don't think the diagonal evade is allowed, as an evade must be into a box the evader can 'legitimately' enter and it cannot legitimately move diagonally. So if it evades, it must go directly backwards. If, on the other hand, the charge is directed onto the front of the two crusader units, I don't think that unit can evade. It can't evade away from the charge along the diagonal, because it is in a ZOC and such a diagonal move isn't a 'legitimate' one. It can't evade backwards, because it cannot interpenetrate the friendly unit behind it (cavalry can't interpenetrate cavalry). So it has no legitimate evasion route.

My interpretation is based on the idea that the requirement that the evasion is into a box the evader can legitimately enter excludes evasion movement that would be prohibited by other rules, such as the ZOC or interpenetration rules. I would be interested to see if others agree.

The rally penalty applies for any unit that can charge. Infantry have to be in an adjacent box (including diagonals). Cavalry may be in an adjacent box or must be able to move one box straight or diagonally, then charge a unit straight ahead in an an adjacent box. Note that the wording on page 42 apparently excludes a cavalry charge that is a forward movement followed by a diagonal charge. 

RogerC

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#2 [url]

Apr 30 17 4:28 AM

imageimage

Ok, thank you, Roger. Right, the Knights cannot evade and this sounds good, I agree.
Anyway, this was the situation. Let's imagine that 3 and 4 black are cavalry units.  2 red is charging diagonally in the back 3 and 4 black. 1 red is an Ayubbid cavalry.
Terrain is impassable.
 We allowed the black units to evade in box 2 (but we were not convinced..)- IMHO, 4  black cannot  evade in  box 4, but it could have evaded if  that terrain was not impassable. But what about 3 black ? Does the Zoc of red 1 block any attempt of evasion? The ZOC rule, Pag 40, seems to refer to intentional decision by active player. If it is no so, your interpretation is correct (and probably I would have destroyed both of them!...image)

Last Edited By: Lucamarini Apr 30 17 4:47 AM. Edited 1 time.

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#3 [url]

Apr 30 17 5:54 AM

The problem with Zone 2 is that it would be an illegal move for normal moving, charging or to my mind evading. Again the magic words from the bottom para on page 43 are "It must move into an adjacent box that it could legitimately enter, either directly away from the direction of the charge (into a diagonal box if the chargers are charging on a diagonal) or directly to its rear."

The key points are

'legitimately enter' which precludes zone 2 under the prohibited diagonal move rule at the bottom left para of page 41.
The phrase adjacent box it could legitimately enter and note the diagonal point does not specify into a diagonal box directly away from the diagonal charge so unit 4 could evade into zone 3 especially as the ZOC is blocked by unit 3. However the fate of unit 3 is more awkward, due to the ZOC issue. That might need a ruling.
 

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#4 [url]

Apr 30 17 6:09 AM

Thank you for the picture Luca. I don't think black 3 or 4 could evade into box 2, as such a diagonal move isn't 'legitimate' for either unit. Black 3 is pinned by the ZOC and black 4 can't move diagonally as it is in a ZOC and in any case would have to move through black 3, and it can't interpenetrate another cavalry unit. I think black 4 can evade backwards into box 4. I can't see anything which disallows such a rearward evade. Black 3 cannot evade into box 4 (at least unless black 3 has already evaded there) as a backward move would involve interpenetration of black 4, which isn't 'legitimate'.

So it seems slightly better for red 2 to declare the charge to be against black 3. Black 3 can't evade and red 2 will get 2 chances to hit it. If red 1 hasn't yet activated, it too can charge black 3. In their own turn, the movement choices for black 3 and 4 are limited. Maybe the best is for black 4 to move sideways away from the impassible terrain and hope it gets another activation as otherwise red 2 will be on its rear again in the turn after..

RogerC

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#5 [url]

Apr 30 17 6:24 AM

Sorry, I hadn't seen Sidley's  reply when I did my earlier post.

For myself, i don't think black 3 can evade into box 3. The wording is that the evade, if not directly to the evader's rear, must be 'directly away from the direction of charge (into a diagonal box if the chargers are charging on a diagonal)'. So the primary requirement is that the evade is directly away from the enemy in any evade. I don't see an evade into box 3 as directly away from the charge from red 2. It is perpendicular to the direction of charge, and, just as I wouldn't say that moving sideways (perpendicular) is directly away from a frontal charge, I don't think moving perpendicular to a diagonal charge is 'directly' away'.  Thus, I think that an evade from a diagonal charge must either be directly backwards or into the diagonal box which is opposite the box from which the charge is coming. Otherwise 'directly away' loses its force.

RogerC

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#6 [url]

Apr 30 17 6:35 AM

For what it's worth, I interpret this exactly the same way Roger does. Interestingly, if 3 were light cavalry and attacked first, they would be eliminated because they must evade, but cannot.

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#7 [url]

Apr 30 17 7:00 AM

Thanks Kenntak.

Maybe I'm being slow, but if black 3 were light cavalry, why couldn't they evade into box 4? It is directly to their rear and they can interpenetrate black 4. The ZOC from red 1 still allows backward movement. There doesn't seem to be any prohibition of an evade into a box in which an enemy unit exerts a ZOC. Red 2 would then continue its charge onto black 4, but then black 4 could itself try to evade directly backwards. 

I'm I'm not sure what to make of the rule that light cavalry can evade behind a non-light unit in the same box. If black 3 was light, and the charge was declared against it, could it just evade behind black 4? Although it doesn't seem right that black 3 could evade behind black 4 in the same box, and avoid a charge into that box, the wording of the rule seems to permit it. Again, the charge would continue against black 4 if the evade was successful.

RogerC

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#8 [url]

Apr 30 17 7:14 AM

Sorry for my misstatement, Roger, you are right, the light cavalry can evade to box 4. That is interesting regarding black 3 (assuming it were light cavalry) that it can simply evade behind black 4. As the rules are written, that seems permissible, but it seems a bit odd that it does not have to leave the box. It is true that if black 3 evaded to box 4 its flank would still be exposed, but in that situation, at least it is trying to make its way out of the melee.

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#9 [url]

May 1 17 3:51 AM

Hi Chaps- sorry for the delay- my "subscribe" turns itself off from time to time.

I think you have worked it out without me.

I would say that I rather regret the option I wrote for troops to evad to their rear; that will be on my "Hit" list for v2, since sometimes units may evade at 45 degrees to the angle of an enemy (rear) charge.

Best, Simon

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#10 [url]

May 1 17 5:36 AM

Thanks to all.
However I'm still someway confused...
Could be better perhaps that the evading units go in box 3, as it is not adiacent to any enemy unit nor violate (?) zoc rule.
Is it correct?

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#11 [url]

May 1 17 7:07 AM

They cannot evade into box 3. The evade rule on page 43 give the evading unit two choices: (1) evade "directly away from the direction of the charge (into a diagonal box if the chargers are charging on a diagonal)"; or (2) evade directly to its rear. Box 3 is not directly away from the charge that is being made on a diagonal (that would be box 2); box 3 is not directly to the rear of the evading unit (that would be box 4).

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#16 [url]

May 1 17 2:45 PM

Yes indeed they could - if no impassable terrain was in the box, nor a unit through which they could not pass. If the box was empty, for example, or had a friendly light unit in it.

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#17 [url]

May 2 17 2:04 PM

Sorry, but I really do not understand. If the unit must evade only backward, then they can evade ONLY in box 4. If it can evade diagonally too, they should evade in box 2, because it ' s the way to run directly away from its Charger. I don't understand why it could evade in the box where is the impassable terrain, if it would be an open space (it is not on his back nor carry it far from the enemy)...

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#18 [url]

May 2 17 11:31 PM

Hi Luca,

Units can evade either to their rear or directly away from the direction of the charge. In this case, it can't evade into box 2 because such moves are prohibited (page 41 bottom left paragraph and diagram).

Best, Simon

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#20 [url]

May 3 17 1:03 PM

Great! :-) Happy gaming.

Evades are a tricky area of the rules- they work, but I think I could write them better if i was writing them today. I have some ideas...

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